"You did WHAT to my book?"
So there’s this evangelist called Ray Comfort who has hooked up with TV’s Kirk Cameron to become an unstoppable force for stupid. If you haven’t seen it yet, here is a YouTube video explaining their intent to…oh, just watch it, I really can’t do justice to the message. But notice that the implication is their copy of Origin of Species will be the exact same one sold in the college bookstore, just with this wacky introduction appended.
Eugenie Scott, a celebrated voice of scientific reason, wrote a response to this version of the book in which she reveals that this was a big fat lie. Chapters are missing, as is Darwin’s own introduction. The part I especially enjoy about this is Cameron’s statement in the video that “All we want to do is present the opposing and correct view, rather than being censored.” If you have to sell your stuff using lies and hypocrisy, maybe it’s not such good stuff.
I read Dr. Scott’s article the day before I saw this tweet from Daniel Loxton, editor of Junior Skeptic:
I remind all skeptics, atheists, scientists: Ray Comfort’s Origin of Species project is a *publicity stunt.* Our outrage is his best ally.
Then I read Comfort’s own statement. You should too.
I agreed with Daniel’s comment initially, but I have to admit it left my mind for a while as I read Comfort’s ridiculous piece. How can he make a statement like “I want them to thoroughly read On the Origin of Species” when he has gone about censoring the damn thing? What the — frakking — just — grrr.
But then I got to the parting shot, which goes like this:
In Darwin’s book, nothing is as God created it. Instead, all of creation miraculously evolved—from the bear’s mouth to the giraffe’s tail. For some reason, it has all reached the point of maturity during our lifetime and (after millions of years of redundancy) now functions as it was intended. Move over, J. R. R. Tolkien, Arthur C. Clarke, and J. K. Rowling. These three combined don’t hold a candle to Charles Darwin. Most of their fans know that their writings were fantasy. Darwin’s faithful followers don’t.
Yes, Ray Comfort just compared Darwin…to Tolkien. He starts his piece wondering “Why are many atheists so angry?” and ends it with the most inane of “inflammatory” comments. And suddenly Daniel’s words shot back to mind as it became perfectly clear that this is not an argument; this is a troll who wants nothing more than for atheists to get angry. And everyone knows you don’t feed the trolls.
Obviously this silliness isn’t going to have the far-flung effect on future generations of “doctors, lawyers, and politicians” that Cameron gets himself all in a lather about. So although to a rational thinker this is frustrating and even infuriating, the best thing we can do instead of frothing on cue is to ignore it. If you want to spend your energy countering celebrity idiocy, there’s always Jenny McCarthy and her anti-vaccination campaign of terror, which actually is a matter of life and death. Comfort’s dangling some easy, easy bait, and I can only imagine his dismay and disappointment if people just stopped taking it, or talking about him at all.
So how was everyone’s Halloween?
Awesome post, awesome blog. It’s a publicity stunt, of course, and I’m anxious to see how it works out for them. I’ve never understood why that belief system has to come with a recruitment program. Shouldn’t it be enough for them to believe what they want? Why do my kids have to believe their crazy as well?
(I found your blog, BTW, via a post on NaNoWriMo, and had to follow that rabbit hole.)
Well thanks for coming to the mad tea party, Ethan!
I don’t really have a problem with evangelism except when it leaves the venue of religion and starts impinging on science. At that point my feeling is more like “My kids will damn well never believe their crazy.”
(Meaning creationism, not God. If my hypothetical kids turned out to be critically thinking theists, I could live with that.)
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I think for Kirk’s point of view. it is difficult for him and other Christians to watch our youth become “non believers” The statistics say that 8 out of 10 teenagers become “non believers” by age 13 even if they were raised in the church. For a mom that is raising two boys that scares me. I guess I am just on the opposite side of this and not to offend anyone by anything, that is not my point to my comment but because of my upbringing and faith and as a fellow educator it makes me sad. But again I am not a “commercial Christian” as some are, they do not walk what they talk, They go to church on Sunday and flip everyone off as they can not get out of the parking lot quick enough. Believe what you believe, we are all entitled to that but I know Kirk believes his “calling” is to promote what he believes and I do respect him for that and respect everyone’s belief.
Kim, it’s always awesome to have you come and state your views even (especially) when we disagree.
First of all, what I absolutely cannot respect is this nonsense with Origin of Species. I’ve known about Cameron’s evangelism for years and didn’t care, but this is so underhanded and outright deceitful. I don’t see how it’s possible to respect people who have to lie to you to get you on their side. But, again, this was obviously carefully planned just to anger people and get Cameron & Comfort in the news, and hopefully thinking people, theist or atheist, can dismiss those kinds of childish tactics.
As to your own kids, now there I can respect your fear that they might not grow up sharing, as you see it, your own values and beliefs. That’s every parent’s fear, isn’t it? (Religious or otherwise.) Since I know you personally I’m going to presume that you must be bringing up decent, respectful boys. I wonder, though, if you aren’t equating that decency and respect with a belief in God. If the worst were to happen, and your sons turned into atheists, I don’t believe that they would dump those values that you spent so much time teaching them.
But again, I do sympathize with your personal fears. They’re a lot different, though, from the slimy bait-and-switch tactics used by Comfort to promote backwards thinking in the realm of science where he has absolutely no place.
Quite apart from the sheer silliness of Comfort and Cameron, it’s interesting to note that so many US Christians seem to imagine that it’s an either/or thing with the Bible and Darwin. The Darwinian theory of evolution is supported by 10,000 plus clergy, the Anglican and Catholic Churches. Archbishop Rowan Williams said, “I think creationism is…a kind of category mistake…”. You don’t have to be an atheist to accept evolution. You do have to be an idiot not to.
You can read more about it here.
One of the first issues of Skeptic magazine I ever read had a very enlightening (for me) article about scientists who were also religious, or theists. I wish I’d kept it because their explanations of how they were able to reconcile their belief and their faith made so much sense, and I keep wanting to cite it.
Ken Miller comes to mind first on the topic of theists that support evolution. Ken is a roman catholic and a quick youtube search will bring up a plethora of videos of him lecturing on genetic issues such as human chromosome # 2 predicted by evolutionary biology. Ken Miller was also a star witness in the dover-v-kitzmiller trial.
Very interesting, I’m not familiar with the name so I’ll have to look for those videos. Thank you!
Joey thank you for your words. I was hesitant to post my comment but after reading yours, I appreciate your open mind and saying what is on yours without putting anyone on the defensive. That is a true art that you have always had and I have always admired that.
If either one of my boys grew up and decided what values and religion I have taught and exposed them to would not make me love them or treat them any different. I believe we are all entitled to our thoughts and that includes my boys. If anything they get out of me being their mom is to have knowledge not doubt. That is what Prem Rawat teaches and I believe that. They also should not feel the need to share their beliefs either, sometimes some things are better left unsaid. The bible is just another book a guide in a sense. As a Baptist I am probably not like the others. Cameron I think has gone to the other side of things, A Bible thumper if a label is needed. I think he feels his calling is to teach others because his life was so out of control when he was younger. In fact I hope my boys do not share their beliefs as Cameron b/c it is a turn off to others. That is not what God wants.
And Maraget just because I do not believe in evolution does not make me an idiot which is also another reason why I would never raise my boys Catholic even though my husband is a devote Catholic along with his entire family.
It is a same that Cameron has to use his name and use the Media to promote his ideas. As a strong Christian I can assure you a lot of us do not believe or think as he does. That is also why I left the church he attends because I felt that the pastor would get up and talk about how his son did at his baseball game than teach me about the Bible, and help me understand and guide me. It is people like him that have turned so many people off to church.
Thank you Joey as always for such thought provoking post.
Kim, sorry you’ve been ill and hope you’re feeling better soon.
You wrote, “.. just because I do not believe in evolution does not make me an idiot which is also another reason why I would never raise my boys Catholic even though my husband is a devote Catholic along with his entire family.” I assume you meant that you couldn’t raise your boys as Catholics because the Pope accepts evolution (it makes a change to be able to say something in his favour).
I assume you accept that your boys were born as a result of sexual reproduction, sperm and eggs and all that, and not that the stork brought them? After all, you were there. Once upon a time, people didn’t connect sexual intercourse with pregnancy and childbirth, so they invented all sorts of stories to explain how babies got here. It’s the same with evolution.
Before most people could read, before Christianity, someone made up a story about a super-magic trick God did to create life on Earth (this was when no one knew about the rest of the universe, or digital watches). It’s a very old story, but there are lots more stories like it. Depending on where you were born, you’d have been taught a different myth or story. If, for example, you’d been born into a Jain family in India, you’d have learned that the universe never began and will never end – it just goes on forever. The story of how man was created from dirt and brought to life through a breath of air through the nose as told in Genesis 2:7 is a copy of a far older Sumerian creation myth. The Sumerians (5000-2000 BC) invented writing, using reed straws in wet clay, so it’s not surprising that “dirt” that could be clay features in their story.
It’s excusable to persist in believing that such stories are true if you’re a very young child or an imbecile who knows no better, but for an otherwise intelligent, sensible person to cling to such nonsense in the face of all the evidence for evolution baffles me. If you don’t understand the science, fair enough – maybe no one taught you. But I’d expect anyone with a modicum of intelligence to be curious, and to ask questions.
Children ask questions like, “Why is the sky blue?” and “Where do the rainbow’s colours come from?” Do you say, “God made it that way,” instantly discouraging their natural curiosity (and telling them a lie), or do you try to explain about how sunlight is split when it shines through droplets of water? Or do you say, “I don’t know, but shall we find out?”
How can anyone accept all the benefits of scientific discovery in healthcare, medicine, air travel, nutrition, water purification, and so on, yet reject one of the greatest, most interesting discoveries of all – evolution?
I’m sorry, but you owe it to your children to encourage them to think, not to believe that a story that was written 1000s of years ago is literally true. If they realise that what you’ve told them is just a myth, a legend, a story, how will they judge you? They may love you, but will they accept anything else that you tell them?
Kim, if millions of Christians can accept evolution without feeling guilty, why can’t you?
I think Kim makes a common error when it comes to evolution. I do believe that Kim, like cameron/comfort is equating evolution(explanation for the diversity of life) with abiogenesis(the origin of life) and Big Bang cosmology(origins of the universe).
Kim, you have biological offspring? When you look at them, do you see parts of you and parts of your husband? That is evolution. Do you own a cat or dog? Great dane, lab, or greyhound? That is evolution. DNA evidence is criminal investigations, or paternity suits? That is evolution. Drug resistant super-infections? That is evolution. Vestigial limbs like humans with tails or whales and dolphins with legs and pelvic bones? That is evolution. How life started on the planet? Not evolution. Origin of all matter in the universe? Not evolution.
Most people who say they do not believe in evolution, in my experience, accept all the benefits of our understanding of evolution. They even except the evidence, they simply deny the conclusion because it makes them feel less special. I hope the world continues to move towards rejecting bronze age superstition passed down by patriarchal nomadic desert cults and towards a better understanding of the world through objective observations, usually maligned as a ‘materialistic world view’.
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I believe the Bible is a teaching tool. I do not believe literally that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights and that everything is a super magic trick. I think the stories are to be used as an example or a guide on how to decide right from wrong.
And yes I do tell my boys that God made the sky blue but that there is also a scientific reason that it is blue and to thank God for the wonderful Brains that he has given us to find out why it is blue. Because with out that we would not know how it is so he is the basis for all things.
I am by no means an expert of evolution nor really studied it so I must say I am out of my element. But just a question isn’t offspring consider genetics not evolution? I do not accept all the benefits from evolution either and do not believe we evolved from apes. We were made in the image of God.
Prem Rawat teaches knowledge. I have no doubt of where I come from. But I will teach my boys about God and not focus on evolution.
It is about character not science, something that our youth lakes today and I can say that because I have been in education now for 13 years and the children are becoming worse. I am scared for our future and glad I put my boys in private Christian school, Character counts.
I have to take issue with the idea that the bible is a ‘good tool’ for teaching children, if by ‘the bible you mean ‘footprints’ and other extra-biblical nonsense that was created after the fact, promote the idea that Christianity is all warm and fuzzy and kid friendly instead of being the manual for a cosmic-Jewish zombie death cult, then maybe you are right. The actual bible on the other hand is in no way shape or form appropriate for children. The idea that the the stories of the bible “are to be used as an example or a guide on how to decide right from wrong.” is so fundamentally flawed that I hardly know where to start. Perhaps we can start at the beginning.
If I were to advocate or commit rape, murder, genocide, infanticide, ritual human sacrifice, or slavery, I have little doubt you would hesitate classifying me as an evil person. Yes? Yet the same behavior in the god of the old testament is instantly excused as justified.
If a woman was raped, according to gods laws, not mans laws “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.” Deuteronomy 22:28-29. Condolences on getting raped, congrats on the marriage… That is a good example of right from wrong? Not enough rape? There is plenty more where that came from, Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 20:10-14, Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (stone the rape victims to death), 2 Samuel 12:11-14 (god punishes David by having his wives raped), Judges 5:30, Exodus 21:7-11 (sell your daughter as a sex slave, i.e. to be raped) and Zechariah 14:1-2.
As for the other amazing vile ‘lessons’ of the bible such as murder (Deuteronomy 17:12 kill people who don’t listen to priests, Leviticus 20:13 kill the gay men, its OK for chicks, god likes to watch, Leviticus 20:27 kill fortune tellers, tolerance was just not in gods horoscope, Exodus 21:15 don’t hit your dad, Proverbs 20:20 and Leviticus 20:9 don’t curse your parents, Leviticus 20:10 adultery, Leviticus 21:9 fornicating, Exodus 22:19 for not being a Jew, Deuteronomy 13:13-19 kill an entire town if ONE person worships a different god, Deuteronomy 22:20-21 kill a woman for not being a virgin when she marries, Exodus 31:12-15 working of the sabbath even something as simple as picking up sticks, 2 Kings 2:23-24 god kills kids for making fun of bald Elisha by having bears maul them, I will leave this list here, but trust me it goes 20X longer), genocide (1 Samuel 15:2-3, Exodus 23:23, ), infanticide (1 Samuel 15:3, Psalms 135:8 & 136:10, Psalms 137:9 the single most disgusting image of the entire bible, god orders the army of Israel to ‘dash the infants against the rocks’) ritual human sacrifice (Genesis 22:1-18 Abraham’s son though he spares him because its a boy, Judges 11:29-40 Jeptha’s daughter not spared since she is just a girl, 1 Kings 13:1-2 and 2 Kings 23:20-25 god demands that the pagan priests be offered as sacrifice, Deuteronomy 13:13-19 a town and its inhabitants burned as an offering), or slavery(Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:2-6, Exodus 21:7-11, Exodus 21:20-21, Ephesians 6:5, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Luke 12:47-48) feel free to look up the ‘biblical wisdom’. Not suitable material for my kids. Not the lessons or morals I would teach my kids.
Before you tell us how the old testament law no longer applies, I will remind you “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.“(Mathew 5:17-19) Til the end of the earth you are commanded to murder people for working of the sabbath, for not following kosher dietary law, for cutting the hair of their temple, for mixing linens and wool, etc.
The hardest part of your post for me to let go is “I am by no means an expert of evolution nor really studied it so I must say I am out of my element.” If, by your own admission, you don’t understand it, nor have studied it, how can you say you reject what evolution explains? How can you say you don’t accept the benefits of our understanding of evolutionary biology? Modern medicine is based on it. Are we to believe that if you or your children were to become ill you would eschew visiting a doctor and instead pray the sick away? Do you think that the germ theory of disease is correct or do you adhere to the biblical view(Mathew 17:14-20, Mathew 10:5-8) that illness is caused by daemons and possession?
Genetics only makes sense in the light of our understanding of evolution, inheritance is a central part of that and inheritance is what drives evolution. Without genetics there would be no generational changes, no diversity of life as we see it today. Evolution is about so much more than where humans came from, too many fear it because it takes away their specialness, their entitlement, their sense of worth as they have built it up for themselves. You say we were made in gods image and you say you don’t believe we evolved from apes. The first problem with that second part is, we didn’t evolve from apes, we are apes cladisticly speaking. The next major obstacle for such a view comes to us in the form of human chromosome # 2. Predicted well before we were able to properly karyotype with our limited understanding of genetics when we noticed that humans have 46 chromosomes(typically) and the other great apes, chimps, and bonobos have 48. Did we lose an entire chromosome? No. human chromosome # 2 is in fact an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes. Normal chromosomes have a central controling segment called a centromere and the ends are distinct segments called telomeres. Human chromosome # 2 has not only the normal centromere and telomeres, but it additionally has a segment of telomers in the body of the chromosome where it is not normally found and a deactivated (vestigial) centromere. Unless you believe in an exceptionally evil/deceptive god, there is no reason these structures should be there. Also understand we can examine chimp chromosome # 2 and 13a and match it up precisely with the markers in human chromosome # 2.
Do you reject forensics? If a crime is committed and DNA evidence is processed, you realize that is only possible because of evolution. No one is genetically identical to anyone else due to evolution (decent with variation). The average person has 200 mutations genetically that they were not born with, everything from EVRs to replication errors. Those add up from generation to generation. We are all transitional species from that viewpoint.
“It is about character not science, something that our youth lakes today and I can say that because I have been in education now for 13 years and the children are becoming worse. I am scared for our future and glad I put my boys in private Christian school, Character counts.”
This is an appeal to false authority compounded with confirmation bias.
I am sorry you have such a low opinion of my childrens generation and your kids. I think my kids are wonderful and amazing, I think yours probably are too. I don’t envy some of the obstacles they will have to face in their futures. Being a teacher in no way prepares you to make this broad judgment of an entire generation nor does being a parent does. If you wish to berate your children, I cannot stop you, but I do take offense at attacking my children and what they will do or be. I don’t think the children are becoming worse, teachers are allowing their confirmation bias to control them, their church tells them the world is going to hell in a hand-basket so they compile every example they can to support that assertion and reject or ignore all evidence to the contrary. You want to see that the world is heading for an Armageddon to confirm your theistic views, so you can tell us all ‘I TOLD YOU SO’ even if its a hollow self fulfilling prophecy of your own devising. Ironically this blog is titled ‘don’t feed the trolls’ and here I am with hand outstretched offering up the herd.
Clearly your contempt for humanity fits well with what your religion teaches. Your god has nothing but contempt for his creation. Your religion advocates the desire that humanity fails. Your personal experience is not indicative of any global condition of the worlds next generation.
Before anyone gets upset and starts in with the ‘we have to respect other peoples beliefs’ I have an analogy. Say a man drags you on to a rooftop and he explains that he has access to a magic form of protection and the voices in his head are telling him to jump off a building. It is his belief that these voices are real and that he will survive if he jumps off. Is it the right thing to simply nod & smile and not disagree? Is that truly a moral choice? Should we not intercede and do everything in our power to explain to him that its not true, even if it means not ‘respecting his beliefs’? Now what if that man on that ledge has the ability to wrap his arms around this world before he jumps? Some political leaders in The US have made it clear that they believe that the ‘end times’ can only happen when the world is at war, and they very much wish to be alive when Jesus comes back. They have been proactively working to make that happen. Are we really supposed to step back and not interfere because of the imagined sanctity of personal belief?
Do you reject forensics? If a crime is committed and DNA evidence is processed, you realize that is only possible because of evolution. No one is genetically identical to anyone else due to evolution (decent with variation). The average person has 200 mutations genetically that they were not born with, everything from EVRs to replication errors. Those add up from generation to generation. We are all transitional species from that viewpoint.
Chris, you wrote, “Kim, you have biological offspring? When you look at them, do you see parts of you and parts of your husband? That is evolution. Do you own a cat or dog? Great dane, lab, or greyhound? That is evolution. DNA evidence is criminal investigations, or paternity suits? That is evolution. Drug resistant super-infections? That is evolution. Vestigial limbs like humans with tails or whales and dolphins with legs and pelvic bones? That is evolution. How life started on the planet? Not evolution. Origin of all matter in the universe? Not evolution.”
Sorry, but I think your explanation could be confusing. Inherited family characteristics are due to the mix of genes our children inherit. DNA is the genetic material that determines that mix. It’s true that Darwin studied breeds of dogs and pigeons (unnatural selection) while developing his theory of natural selection, but evolution is the whole story, the bigger picture, that took about 4.5 billion years. And when you write “How life started on the planet” is not evolution, what do you mean? Don’t tell me you think God did it. Of course it’s evolution. It’s the beginning of evolution.
Kim wrote, “I do not accept all the benefits from evolution either and do not believe we evolved from apes. We were made in the image of God.”
I’m not sure what either of you mean by the “benefits of evolution”. If there hadn’t been any evolution, we wouldn’t be having this online conversation. There’d be nothing but primordial soup, if that. So it’s not a question of whether or not you “accept the benefits” – evolution didn’t happen to benefit anything or anyone. It just happened. The other stuff – using DNA to identify inherited conditions and for criminal forensics – is down to one branch of science, not evolution. Even if no one had discovered DNA, it’d still be there, in us.
In the image of God? So, what image would that be?
As for being descended from apes; that’s not quite right. We are related to apes. Humans and apes were descended from a common ape-like ancestor. The two branches of the same family split millions of years ago. We’re back to DNA again, because research has shown that our DNA is similar to one of our closest ape cousins, the chimpanzee. Personally, I regard some apes, such as the gorilla, as far nicer relatives than a lot of humans. They care for each other. They’ve been known to care for people too. and they don’t do this because God told them to – they don’t believe in a god.
If you don’t understand evolution, please click here to read more on our website.
I’m sorry you’re scared for the future Kim. I can see why you might be. I find the prospect of uncontrolled arms proliferation and climate change, to name but two major threats to humanity, as pretty scary. But I don’t see God doing anything about these things. He, she or it has never intervened to stop people being stupid. I see no evidence that he, she or it exists.
Character counts? I hope that those who know me would say there’s not much wrong with my character or my son’s. He was raised to be responsible for his own actions, without reference to a deity, and I’m proud of him. Any suggestion that those of us who live without religion lack character is grossly insulting.
Margaret, I have never met you but I do have to say I respect you. I appreciate your thoughts. They are well thought out and especially that your comments are back by research and evidence.
I agree that I am sure there are primates that are much nicer than some humans.
I did not by any means that if you live without religion lack character, I am sorry if I typed it in a way that it would be interpreted as that. I don’t believe if you live with or without religion you lack character, because again I have never met you but I can already tell you do not lack character. In fact what I did mean is some people that do have religion in their life are rude and do not walk what they talk.
All I know is I have these same conversations with my husband and he says the same thing. Who knows maybe you guys are right but I guess my mother ingrained in me especially being raised in a private Christian school I have a hard time letting go of what I was taught as a child and feel I would make God sad if I did. Not to say that I am wrong for that, I just need to read more and research more on the topic to educationally type a response. That is my character, I would not blindly just put down any more comments without understanding more of both sides of the topics.
Margaret I am sorry but you are as wrong as Kim, just for different reasons. Evolution is driven by inheritance, they are inseparable. Inheritance is the reason evolution happens, its decent with modification. We are not just a combination of mammy and daddy, errors occur and sometimes errors are corrected. Decent without the modification would preclude evolution.
As far as the origins of life, we call that line of study aboigenesis, evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis since evolution describes changes from generation to generation, there can be no previous generation with abiogenesis. The study of abiogenesis focuses primarily with chemistry, organic chemistry in understanding how molecules began self-replication.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
Do I believe god had anything to do with it? I don’t believe in god in even the remotest sense. There are no gods, there have never been any gods. Is that clear enough? Myths and superstition are interesting from a literary viewpoint, but not even remotely as a means of personal philosophy. I am not a gnostic atheist on the dawkins scale, but pretty close. There is no real value in the descriptive ‘agnostic’ when it comes to gods, just as there is no need to qualify my disbelief in fairies unicorns and dragons. I don’t believe in them but clearly cannot ‘prove the non-existence’ them or gods. But they are all just as equally ridiculous.
To say we are not apes or monkeys for that matter is wrong, we are both. Your statement is equivalent to saying that frost wasn’t a writer because he was a poet. Cladisticly apes are a subset of monkeys, all apes are monkeys but not all monkeys are apes. Human beings are in fact great apes, along with all the other hominids. Margaret I am glad you read on the subject, but I am sorry to see you have not understood it. Youtuber AronRa has a phenomenal video on this subject. If it lets this link through, I suggest viewing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTHpu8eZJyA
The internet doesn’t surprise me anymore, but it constantly disappoints me. There are so many people impressed with themselves, people with a superficial level of knowledge in topics feel compelled to speak about as if authorities on those topics.
Margaret could you please clarify this entire paragraph.
“Sorry, but I think your explanation could be confusing. Inherited family characteristics are due to the mix of genes our children inherit. DNA is the genetic material that determines that mix. It’s true that Darwin studied breeds of dogs and pigeons (unnatural selection) while developing his theory of natural selection, but evolution is the whole story, the bigger picture, that took about 4.5 billion years. And when you write “How life started on the planet” is not evolution, what do you mean? Don’t tell me you think God did it. Of course it’s evolution. It’s the beginning of evolution.”
I am not sure what exactly about Chris’s post you found confusing. His intention was very clearly to show examples that anyone could relate to of evolution in everyday life, as well as shooting down the two most popular straw men that are used in situations such as these. It is very popular for creationists and other opponents of evolution to claim that certain things that are not in fact part of evolution are major flaws in evolution such as the argument,
“Evolution cannot explain the origins of life therefor evolution is false” the logical fallacy being that evolution does not claim to explain the origins of life instead it explains the diversity. The origins of life obviously being covered by abiogenesis. Another popular one is,
“Evolutions does not explain the origins of the universe i.e. the big bang, and therefor evolution is false.”
Once again Chris’s statement that the origin of matter in the universe is not evolution was his way of shooting down another popular straw man argument.
What exactly were you trying to say when you said, “Inherited family characteristics are due to the mix of genes our children inherit. DNA is the genetic material that determines that mix.” Yes, and these are the mechanisms which drive evolution. It seems like you are trying to say they are somehow something separate from evolution when they are in fact an element of the greater process.
When you say, “It’s true that Darwin studied breeds of dogs and pigeons (unnatural selection) while developing his theory of natural selection, but evolution is the whole story, the bigger picture, that took about 4.5 billion years.” You seem once again to be separating things instead of showing that one element is a part of the other. Selective breeding used by farmers and dog breeders is the same process , however controlled by humans, as happens in nature. These are both representations of how certain traits that are either wanted by a breeder, or are somehow beneficial, or in many cases benign, being passed down from one generation to the next. These changes are the life-form’s evolution. Your estimate of evolution taking 4.5 billion years was a mistake on your part, confusing the age of life on earth with the age of earth itself. About 4.5 billion years ago the earth was only just forming, and was still so molten and hostile nothing could have been evolving, because life had not come into existence yet. The oceans, which formed about 4 billion years ago is commonly used as an estimate for when abiogenesis occurred, and trust me that there is a significant amount of time between 4.5 billion and 4 billion years ago.
Your final statement in which you ask of Chris’s post “ “How life started on the planet” is not evolution, what do you mean? Don’t tell me you think God did it. Of course it’s evolution. It’s the beginning of evolution.” Firstly, there is no indication in anything that Chris wrote that he was trying to imply that “God did it” and as I explained above, abiogenesis is not evolution. It is exactly what it is, which I believe Chris linked to in his comment. Evolution cannot begin until the fundamental building blocks have formed to the point of becoming life, evolution comes after this point.
Please clarify if you can anything that I may have misunderstood.
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Arguments concerning evolution vs. creation are about as meaningful as MAC vs. PC.
Both take 5 volts to run the processor. Without God there is no creation. Without God there is no science. There is evidence of God in all scientific study. The confusion is based on mostly conceptual beliefs and not one of practical experience.
Evolution exists. Creation exists. What is different is interpretation of what they are.
We may have evolved from more primitive forms such as monkeys and apes. The first humans were probably more closely resembling that form. There is no evidence other than the old testament that alludes to a more “modern” human form as being the first of its kind.
But that is not an argument for the non-existence of God. As long as there is life in this world, there is a creator. If it is an energy and not a person, it still does not negate its power. The real problem becomes evident when discussing that power being represented in human form. When some worship Jesus, some Buddah, some Mohammed, some Krishna, etc. there is a discord among people who have created their own “science” revolving around these object of worship. Not having any practical experience other than scriptures translated over thousands of years from ancient languages and the proverbial game of “Telephone” handed down over generations, it is easy to see that belief is no longer based on much besides theory. This angers those who wish to believe and it further separates them from those who just cannot bring themselves to believe in something that has no scientific proof.
So, how does that gap become resolved? There is proof of a God but it will not be found by reading anything or conducting experiments, or even traveling into space. It is found within each person as they were made complete and equipped to connect to the power which created them. But as we are drawn further and further outside ourselves to know the reality of life, we are mislead more by those who do not know but only guess because they read something and formulated an opinion or concept.
Don’t sell your own true self short. Look within. Ask for guidance. As your heart desires, so shall you be moved along the path of knowledge. It’s easy. But it’s the most difficult task a human faces in this world. That’s why it is priceless.